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let slide cells uh... your p_c_ in uh... the americanprospect uh... as weak as we speak uh... i've mentioned uh... that um... there'sabout fifteen thousand people protesting outside of of the state house in lansing michiganuh... for a vote on that uh... seems to be more or less a foregone conclusionit's not clear whether or not uh... uh governor schneider will actually signthis but he's given all indications of that he will
so let's let me just let's start with uh... the premise ofyour peace uh... well lakshi let's start with whatis a so-called albright to work state uh... uh... right-to-work estate date back toa concept came into effect here the passage of the nineteen forties seventaft-hartley act which is probably abh one of the fire if its most importantdomestic policy
uh... pieces of legislationtwentieth-century right behind medicare and social security and and obama karenand maybe a few others basically what what what like to work did sectionfourteen p of the bill it to permit too to in effect not in the fact that allowed workers not controlling union
and the condition of of employment butnot only that not only not to join the union but alsonot the pain of the union what's called an agency fee uh... which compensates the union forrepresenting the work because the worker will still being from the that bit preview rebuiltkatie collective bargaining agreement unit they're not only right and we're not talking about andsocial benefits that because
is uh... one union shop raises the wagesfor workers there that other nonunion shops of will feel on upward pressure onuh... on on wages but literally those people who are working alongside uh...union members who are paying dues uh... the negotiations and uh... the concessions that uh... theunions get from the uh... from management are uh... our benefits that everyone shares brett direct benefit will basically that
but they'd been the man or woman excuseis paying union dues uh... and and and and and get and purpleand getting a service for that uh... and you're not paying you reviewedthat you're getting became services whether increase safetyand health uh... regulations which might preventyou from moving away or increased wages increased uh...health care benefit it better that before nineteen fortycaptain entire country
based upon uh... the national laborrelations act of nineteen thirty-five pat had what's called close what basically you you joining me aboutthe condition of employment just add you if your employer hired youfor perceptive start eight before you you uh... at the condition ofemployment throughout the show up at eight o'clock not at noon or two o'clock in theafternoon but that was made it by they
applauded it uh... after the taft hartley act offorty seven applied uh... the you you've just the sort ofoutlined einon important dynamic there because uh... we are sold this notion uh... uh... the so called the right to workuh... allies as being you know enhancingworker freedom uh... but it's only comes at the expenseof workers in general as opposed to
you know the idea of all let's expandworker freedom to where they can set their own hours uh... you know they that in other words let me just uh... wade into this alittle bit because i think is very important for people to understandbecause i think it's one of the biggest misconceptions and the most sort ofarbitrary arguments uh... of the libertarian ilka of the conservative mind if you will yet bluntly
approx and it gets a crock that soup that that the public mixed metaphors hidden behind a bright very high-minded uh... argument about economic freedomthat the libert that libertarians make you'll find it onthe national right-to-work foundation uh... which is predicated if you canactually provides a lot of very beautiful objective factual informationabout court decisions about the right that workers to have
depending on what state they're in atraitor center but basically the claim is that well districts where workers for himbecause you know your your good your joe josephine working show up to workingincome suddenly the it u_n_ officials in your face ten k without doing the union there's all kinds of things that youhave to do at work
yet that's why i all of us everyemployee in the country uh... get consulate of flight worker employer handbook with six points and what their employerwat fun and what to expect from them and ithink they can do and and they think they can do employers and not allowed todiscriminate based on essence of who you are meaning whether you are uh... of the race they don't like worrya gender they don't like
but they are they off-highway altitude they picked upthe pretty much uh... you know anglo-american law going back along way that set the terms and conditions ofemployment if it gets another term and condition ofemployment the differences if agreement that's been made betweeni'd union anti employer uh... just at that time in conditioningnot exclusively a term and condition step by the employer
excel and that the back the fear thatpeople have occurred in fact that might in a new team will be more power in thenext and the next step that aren't his course well of course d uh... themanagement can set the certain conditions 'cause they're theones who are paying the workers abut dean of the workers are getting uh...benefits from the context of unions negotiating so they've beenthen that is actually greg heater that significant exactly and what do you wantworked up which impacted the difference between aright-to-work state in an arm right to work
you know it eight big government evenpermit the workers if they you know unlike the the union politics you know they'll doorways supportingdemocrats or whatever you know i'm not gonna support that but ok uh... i'd get it i'd have to paysound the compensate the unique representingme uh... uh... and and and gaining thebenefits yet collective bargaining
went to work at the event will be playedout in michigan at this it's finally implemented and any othertwenty-three states where it is jumping into anything of looking at the representation so yet right it is what's called the free rider pro right and so it's notand they know where people should be clear here that this is not just simplysaying you don't have to join the union it means that you have to pay a lesserfee in terms of of uh... compensating the union for the workthey're doing on your behalf in which
you are gladly accept ending you knowuh... you're not going to see you workers say i've now that i uh... my uh... you knownow that i uh... this is a right to work i don't have to pay that fee i'm notgoing to take the benefits that the union has negotiated on mybehalf and it's like uh... ten fifteen percentless intake i'm gonna have a of crap your pension or no pension i'm going towork on the most dangerous machines that exist on the on the floor uh... backthat that uh... you know aren't expected
on a regular basis eccentric center thisif if this was going to be if we're really going to um... a play by thoserules you would have to see those workers those uh... uh... process that an actimpact and in fact in michigan uh... at atdespair at that moment but that may change by the end of the day uh... and and any other but not like towork space in fact you already have that right yousimply have to pay again with colby a_t_t_ board which willbe less
by definition than what we paid humanbeing because but you're not a lot so saying what we're going to you know uh... sustaining the union's politicalproblem or a community outreach program oranything else that the union does with its revenue base in and and its budgetyou only pay for your collective collective bargaining and so uh... um... and we know
there has been mean it's it's verydifficult thing to measure particularly at a time when we have such a low uh... rate of unionization in the uh... months private workers in thiscountry uh... but point nine percent which is which is the lowest it's been gets around nineteen uh... so it's pretty fun right in the hopes that the westernworld that's what we've been world uh...
the principal pretty low low-grade also but it important to knowthat even though the front of a a low-grade that union do negotiate a collectivebargaining agreement for almost ninety percent of french workers anyway so you know they their they're covered andthat you've got a lot of powerful but not here in united states and we also know from the limited datathat's out there that you right-to-work
states tent have lower wages they also tend tohave more worker injuries and worker deaths um... because there is a lessprotection for them and so you quit with uh... with the with all ofthat uh... why is what's happening indexing worse than what happened in wisconsin when i can pick up a couple of reasons uh... one is that it covers the entire work force
uh... at this point in time in theunited states public sector workers are as we were just imply much more muchmore potent a force and much larger force andprivate-sector workers there about thirty thirty five percentof public sector workers are or in the union contract and that's what we've covered inwisconsin yep there was no effort that to uh... tomake uh... wisconsin right-to-work state for private sector workers uh... haircut
and private-sector workers even in theircurrently atrophied condition at at at all uh... labor union force or or dripping which drives economic changes for the work place is a whole twenty twoeight w would were uh... at its peak in the fifties and fifty it set like contracting and its way tobenefit standard
uh... itni unite steelworkers well allkinds of non nonunion employers i think that that helped build theamerican middle-class note in those packet so at target directly uh... private-sector workers uh... beyond the public sector effortsand say with consummate worked hard help is but dramatically different saying annotated actually adramatically different thing
in in the in the park place unitedoracle autoworkers which really really was the most important powerful and had carmarthen for americanprospect the other day but that american union uh... of the twentieth century so theydon't pay the barrier boxeight iv kind of symbolic
to through this changing possiblychanging in michigan well just give us a little history of the u_a_w_'s role both empowering workers across the countrybut also and i think um... you know your piece uh... points this out abhi u_a_w_also played eighty very strong of role or in social change in this country yeah absolutely
i mean i i mean uh... on on the prestigeof empowering workers i mean anyway don't you followed the growth of of what was called by from the fortieseconomy asking for motor company but it also meant or the other automobile crate automobile companiesbut the the manufacturing uh... uh... spearhead of the year of the entire u_s_ economyas those at those companies grew
workers felt empowered and from buried bloody brutal militant action as militant imposters again any advancewestern world they organized of company uh... in the mid third when they were denied both companies
that organization again office office break too to feel to robert to to to electriccompanies throughout the entire manufactured based and could be factory economic change that i just alluded toearlier but anyway that was more than just likeeight me first labored it it's sought selfespecially uh... through the eyes of the really remarkable uh... president walter reuther
and add the at an institution to advancesocial justice uh... united states more generally growth will win militantly and racist what racism in his own in his own union uh... was webpage won't support of thecivil rights movement at a time when amendment right or not uh... was work worked uh... directly inclosely with dr king that behind him uh... you can see in in the in thegrainy photos and and and uh... video of
doctor king given his uh... i have a dream speech in august nineteen fifty three in washington behind him worth also you know uh... uh... uh...you know under sporting helped uh... isabella blistering for democratssociety in the nineteen fifties like that that the quarantine based on theleft i mean it the port huron statement the foundingdocument of that group was written at a u_a_w_ own uh...campground in in michigan that wasn't at that point
back that that wasn't a total renting out thecampground that was like going to to a progressive group but by they've been a sniff the airforce into with who it is important uh... roster toward the end of his lifehe died nineteen seventy welcome finally came out against vietnam war which was which was also very importantbreak within the labor movement and within the broad american liberal leftthere was d
he had to take the combat at that doctorking because they are they've both worked closely with withlyndon johnson and wanted to maintain a good working relationship with them uh... but he did he do that as well uh... even spoke out very early likefifteen on my maybe early seven before he died about about environmentalists uh... which is something that you didn'thear and manufacturing uh... manufacturing groups unions or employerstalked about what template incredibly important
organization it out of business inamerica labor movement in in the history twenty century america you know it's it's it's especiallyinteresting to me because i i i wasn't really aware of uh... reuter's rule all in the u_a_w_'s role all in that aspect of it because one ofthe things that uh... people have been writing aboutover the past couple years is the uh... developed between unions and
the social liberal left uh... around that time in the earlyseventies which in some ways the e created a sort of a a cycle of weakening the union support and strength withinthe democratic party and then the democrats not um... supporting units and he decided that uh... in many respects that was beginning
of the and of union strength because um... unions became alienated from that the social left i guess uh... gene yet that that's right uh... you know you had a potentially uh... split between on one hand don't i mean i but there's no other way from the whiteworking-class anything especially
institutions even at that time when youget thirty percent density in the work force in private sector in the private sector the quote that ifelt like seven percent now don't really matter what and it was a real political economic and political weight to what you thought and like the merging
emerging new uh... progressive formations of the fiftiesand early seven feminism i think they wait movement uh... pith helmet spent the african theafrican-american movement in civil rights movement now but within that will be so the portly labor and variety i think because a lot of it it is thekind of photos social cultural anxiety toward even virgin group
that a lot of americans and of course wenote today a lot of americans share they witnessed what women want um there were more uh... progressive unions that was sympathetic for these groups part of it had to dowith like their own membership there are membership might be more female african-american like the puplike the public sector like awsome en route thirty below
there were a lot of white guy in the auto workers they walked a lot of african americanbanking on the workers and it was first sort of you know point that and you know we've got the people ofdifferent when he became president of the ueda youknow it became thought that the u_a_w_
should be broadly speaking and an organization that that the famedsort of social justice um... so there was a conflict betweenafew evening on one hand come from whose reported even merchant uh... social movements in the fiftiesand early relief at this uh... and others but some of the building trade unions
uh... without and parchment like theoverall umbrella group the a_f_l_c_i_o_ it george meany you know painlessly something like you know the antiwardemonstrators like meaning the mailing q with demonstratorsyou know looked looked look he did attract through who look like children's smelllike john right first meeting between market in my you know in nineteen fifty-nineyourself that there was a split but there wasalso like a push back against explain
within labor and that you know that should be should be recognized and understood aswell that the uh... that we we see this implemented inmichigan and the the implications are going to be that i mean therethere's there's a obviously aside from just the implications inmichigan um... what artist a little bit about
where you see the the union's uh...going where within the future but before we get there would have thank you know you quoted a a glaze hehas said that leases in your piece about the sort of the the the truths more elapsed between uh...right-to-work states so-called right-to-work states and states thatuh... allowed essentially unions to have measure of parity in in entering acontract with with management is that what we're well
happens now politically and the whitworth we saw some uh... michiganuh... members of the uh... house delegation uh... meeting with snyder saying likedon't to this uh... this is going to be done uh... where wary really anywhere to go now i make itseems to me that then i think the with is a bigpoint of your your piece that if we can happen in
it's very difficult for it to happenanywhere and and and maybe we need to talk before we get there about the uh...the referendum that law austin this past uh... november sixth uh... because unions smelt this comingdown the pike saw this coming down the pipeline exmoor ifor you know that right uh... anna and ithink that the michigan situations they dictate theof meet the cliche but nevertheless maytake a pic botha side over overreaching
but the union and now the uh... the uh... it the corporate leadershipthe uh... in in michigan and their and their political their political and ideological ally michigan didn't is not indiana it should be noted thatindiana actually changed its right-to-work laws
uh... at the beginning of the year twothousand twelve but the the union density in in indiana is you know maybe hair slightly more than half what it is in in initiative uh... it frankly wikipedia the role theunique yet that was the first new right-to-work state in hand and you know affair of but you know kuat
quite a while i think and that sort ofbegan to like sort of chip away at the you know this kind of status quo where their right to workspace in or not right to work that there's a bit did michigan would bethe twenty-fourth state i think in the country life the country is broughton oddly statewide that their populationwise that there are still many more people inon bike to work however
because justified the court depictedfifty below confederate south and that sort of enough fairly yet not lesser populated but amountain state complaint state for the of the midwest that that or arb our right to work well felt like a good publicity and saw whathappened in the habit of looking at wisconsin in the fight to ohio and theycould well let's get ahead of it and won a referendum would quit andflyin
collective bargaining in the michigan state constitution and that sort of on the start-uprepublican appealing i can't hear if your labor strategist at michigan andmaybe around the country but eppudu member like when u_a_w_ that peakin michigan probably had liked forty percent org need empties like fiftyyears ago when democratic presidents used to begin their there but democratic panic for president begintheir campaigns by campaigning cadillac square of thetwenty one thousand that
u_a_w_ members carried for them that happened in the constitution thingbecause that with the with the fact on the ground that didn't work out so they tried everything but the poweractive that that very fact that they had to do itdemonstrated that they will they were too weak to pull it off so the referendum victory planet you'llfall campaign twenty one million bucks outspent by a little bit at twenty fivemillion for the corporate drive but not
too much and it was fifty eight forty two like net in a presidential year whenyou're going to get a big democratic turnout today one twelve points behind brocco bomb uh... in in and within collected then complected pardonthe pun occasion referendum
wrote that when the right to work type that you know and that really had time for upcomingthey don't they're not as as powerful thing maybe you want tothink they were now we can't be helped elect speedo i really can't the template that equal and and make expect data to identifywith collective bargaining and you need
right at michigan a right-to-work state moving at a pointwhen room too much weaker than than they used to be into dramatic selection and no monthly you know that americancouldn't wait you know in lifting the very dramaticfrightened about k but even the big three auto companiesdon't want
i wanted to change i think they have aof working relationship with the u_a_w_ now you've got than they'll bear fruit good for you remember the minute walk toour wages and benefits but the company that supplies in the l_a_ they don'twant to finish it shake picked up they don't it's not me a better trained they don'tthink that in their benefit and i think that a lot of michiganvoters don't nobody should teamed up together that you know like they don'twant nafta demonstration they'll want to
come films somebody trying to figure out away i don't recall the governor snyder in that state uh... you know that theythey basically don't want i with respective trauma of a reasonable amount of of said thecontract so i think affront you know moderately optimisticthat one way or another that diff doesn't happen long-term either either
later backed down which i don't know ifyou agree that he has a lot of people pushing them to do it or if he does if he does dominate there is some kind of referendumapparently there's like something in the in the state constitution that doesallow a referendum the vote it's a tricky saying it's kind of likeuh... uh... like a cue ball of often off thethe eight ball of the four point of side
pocket kind of thing but that they mightbe up to be that ralph you don't want to use connecting forelection they want to know dental run very hard replace nighter replayed uh... differentstate legislators who voted for that but i think that might be a paternalrandomness you know so beyond that kept the faith the the broader american labormovement that's more problematic let's talk aboutthat briefly because the mentioned you mentioned that uh...
nevada the i think it's the cali in area munion round primary look a little local unionuh... they're working in the context of so-called right-to-work state and theyhave had a tremendous amount of success because uh... uh... the union and anna and i want you tojust sort of matt and also one of the things thatstruck me this past year we had the chicago teachers strike which was iswhich was incredibly effect
and one of the things that uh... thatthe the the teachers that were able to do and i presume part of it is becausetheir teachers uh... communicate and they spent resources andtime any it sounds like he had a specific strategy um... long before they went on strike to create relationships with the broadercommunity so the broader community now of course your teachers your you'retalking to parents it's almost sort of a you know that's a that's almostpre-existing in some respects but they invest in the broader community
they both at work the teacher's union was not just workingfor the teachers they made it clear to the broader community that the teachers'unions also working for the broader community and that there are many people whoargued in the wake of of the failure to recall scott walker that what theunion's might have been better off doing is making it clear to the broader communitythat look this is not just an attack on us its alltime the legal an attack on the broader
community because this is going toeffect the services that you get it's gonna affect your wages need to invest people outside of theunion in the union struck uh... bright n you know that i i agree with you thatthe teachers in chicago were quite effective in that general sort of that that possibility opened up formembers of what you might call but sort of caring profession right like interns
like no ourselves white men who don't like optionfirefighters which should be uh... noted are excluded from this right-to-work law in inmichigan because they often support republican seems likethat's a cut out designed to your support groups that sip support uh... right-to-work type people uh... i do agree that you know if veryimportant that the union team
fifty at at affluent they're wished and hope to be as community-minded at at fraud in there in this social appeal at as possiblecannot cannot be what they're often called uh... by conservatives and republican
uh... special interest quote unquote toothpick proved to be to be organizations that have been that that general lebed uh... in in committed to protecting myplate at the department story because especially have a situation where made a bunch of luck faded jeans thatuh... a bunch of what they did casinos we had names that were somewhat corrupt
somewhat you know just going along with with the corporation uh... windows but he knows and and the individual who ran thethickness and then you have a tremendous effort by by the hotel and restaurant workersunion the parent of culinary to to organize entire counting up omaevery casino in that in that uh...
and at the traffic going for a nightstate even allowing for the help identify the recession it it you know etc except for shell malcolm and and one other and notebook computers yet they didn'tthink that what they get you know i mean everybody got hit hard by the recessionby the album bubble uh... being exploded but basically theycome with the middle class wife
uh... and that you know if you can credibly milken has a tremendous esprit de corpyou've got to take it from time to update yes workers in the definitive had greatfaith in the labor movement buttoned up wearing like a corner to keep the coupon they show that support the u_n_ i think there is not a big problem getting indeed
from from workers in in at comerica to fit uh... it's worth it if of one of the most powerfulinstitutions in the uh... the judgment todd that dot uh... within the party moved on topresent apparently uh... leader of the union detailer wentbiking in it but the bottom magaziner's company to ten years ago rated the thirdmost powerful performance state magnitude and it had to do the right towork space
because the the workers field make the only knew him beginning empowers m they are happy can support that you with their uniondues because they didn't know that union internet them at their back uh... it uh... if in fact range for ait's a story
that a lot to do with alan you know that the difficulty but alsothe the uh... accepting a building social movement uh... it uh... it's a big deal that mean thatstate you know what how do you sort of go fromit the fate of uh... you know a million a two million peopleto a country three hundred ten million uh... and create that kind of energy forfor social change and and uh...
and within the labor movement thenobviously from march more challenging complicated question toconsider yeah wisdom and maybe it's a request tome think that it's possible that we'regoing to see and evil lucien of unions to become amean in some ways to uh... service those are the same uh... dynamic uh...
of the eleven insurer's risk elin in a death spiral in some respectsthat uh... you're you're maintaining the last vestige of your power uh... which is keeping you live to acertain extent uh... and i think you even they havesaid in your piece surya just read the they're taking a certain medicine whichis keeping him alive but it's also making weaker in some respects and a mthat
that the trek with point what width automatic indeed you know it's actually put that question on one hand you know make that the functioning of the union in the receiving of its revenue base uh... from from the workers because thatgarden
you uh... obtained their money from fromhe'd give me the way a government obtained money from pacs uh... and that coach fund itself it makes it easy because the it's automatically doctorfrom workers' paychecks uh... uh... underdeveloped if he'sactually a be employed the trick is and is that the term and short expectthat that if in fact into custody issues i think the union
essentially an insurance company whereone can send in a tractor you have it automatically deducted from your bankaccount every month or every three months server yearly and that the insurance company provideyou with with within service especially when u protracted to do it when you can bothbadly you know you get money from the insurance company in time when things are going well for you depart that's totals or whatever
so we think that organ unique actually but social movement a a uh... an execution that it can keepsocial justice as and as luther which at dr king threat to you know like remember dr kingdied in vain uh... we shot the middle of the unionstruggle of a private workers in memphis tennessee he went there to support that that attractive if they were toinsurance company that actually did
baby thing to do we have to take themoney out uh... and in fact importantly that todaymost unique ought comerica teeth fixed my face um... the the relationship between themin their workers is sometimes but sometimes bed something in between they don't have like the that's what weare worth all the logistical power the foot of go to each worker and for the fake a youknow
music that thinking young you need toreally shipping yourself to keep it going otherwise it's going to fade awayyou know we can keep providing services without your you've given them an insurance company or give it a filter dot groovy at thetouch of doctors moving ups in college and contract people correctly didn't give the money and they didn'tthey're receiving benefits yet but they're receiving benefits because
they feel that the union powered band and they in turnby the backbone opinion um... when the competition yes and i appreciate your uh... yourtalking to us about it and it's uh... just been no reported that uh... the house michigan house-passed the legislation fifty-eight fifty oneand now i guess sit
the governor snyder's uh... that's can we shall see but rich ireally appreciate you taking the time
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