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dava newman: taxis. much, much fewer. evan: they've gone out of business in san francisco. i don't know how much longer they have here, it's a thing that's happening, for sure. dava newman: we know this is an innovation, entrepreneurship conference, so that's pretty disruptive. uber's pretty disruptive. we weren't talking about that at the conference, i was talking about mars and hubble. evan: you're based out of dc? dava newman: yeah, dc headquarters.
evan: hello, facebook. i'm evan dashevsky features editor with pcmag.com. if you watch the news lately, it's very easy to become cynical, think that mankind can only do bad things and to each other and to the planet. we also have the capability for doing great things like space exploration. over the last few years, we've had some really big moments in space exploration. let's see, there's new horizons last year went to pluto for a close up. who ever thought we'd see pluto? the dawn spacecraft went to the dwarf planet ceres. the esa, the european space agency, they successfully landed a probe on a planet. then just a few weeks ago spacex managed, after a few tries, to land a rocket upright on a barge in the middle of the ocean. for most of my lifetime, and maybe for a lot of yours, nasa was always at the center of space exploration. a little less these days because there's a mostly collegial competition amongst other countries and their space
agencies, but also there's a burgeoning private space industry. where does nasa fit in? that's why we have our guest, dr. dava newman, who is the deputy administrator for nasa, to help answer some of these questions, and we'll get into it. if you guys have any questions about space, about space exploration, about where we are going, leave them in the comments, social pete has taken it and he will read them out loud later in the show. dr. newman, you so much for joining us dava newman: thank you evan, great to be here with pc magazine, the whole team here. nasa is well and alive. we are on our journey to mars. all of those great examples you gave, we're at the heart and center of them, that's what nasa's doing. we're funding everything you just talked about, we're funding all of it. first let's back up, why exploration. it is about the enduring questions, for us. are there other habitable worlds out there, other habitable
planets? did life exist anywhere else in the universe? we're going to mars to look, searching for past life. all of these enduring questions, boots on mars by 2030, and our journey to mars plan, you mentioned new horizons, what a great year. last year got to pluto, we've explored every planet, i count dwarf planets still, great to get there. july 4th, where will you be? evan: we will talk about that later, the juno spacecraft. dava newman: that's it. we're going to get to some of the big missions in a bit. what is the plan for nasa to get to mars right now? you said 2030, so what kind of timeline are we looking at? 2030 is boots on mars, it's three phases. historically, you probably remember, you might be too young, i
remember apollo. that's how i got inspired, that's why i'm an aerospace engineer. three phases, mercury, gemini, apollo; you're trying, you're testing. i like to explain our journey to mars in three phases as well. we've been doing the first phase, we're almost completing the first phase: international space station. we're in low earth orbit for the last 16 years. we've had humans, nasa astronauts, russian cosmonauts, the world. we've had 222 folks in space, in low earth orbit. we are buying down the human health risks, really important; keep our astronauts healthy and well. look at all of our human health risks. we learn a lot about that. we're doing six month crews, except for the scott kelly mission, the one-year mission we can talk about. in the six-month missions we do about 250 scientific experiments each increment, that's not all; we're doing technology demonstrations as well. that's life in low-earth orbit, phase one. we're on space station, it's a
partnership with five main partners, fifteen different nations. it's a great model of really incredible international partnerships. then we move on. we're designing, building, constructing today our space-line system. it's huge, more powerful than saturn-v. we haven't done this in decades. we're under development, it's really amazing as an engineer, it's really cool. you need to come down and see it at our [inaudible 00:04:04] facility. what is it, 6.5 meters in diameter, 21 meters high. most powerful, heavy lift ever designed and built. the orion capsule goes on top, that's to carry the astronauts. 2018, very shortly, we'll fly what we call em-1: exploration mission one. early 2020s, em-2, with astronauts on board. the entire 2020s we're back earth-moon orbit, and we go further than lunar orbit to deep space. that's a huge technology push. that's all about innovation, that's about the technologies we need to test and have in deep space, in space propulsion, advanced life support
systems, deep space haves. all of these we test out, we try, again, phase two. we call that earth reliant, but we're further away of course. final phase is mars orbit and then boots on mars. when we get to phase three, that's what we have slated for the 2030s. that's when we're earth independent, that's a big deal. closer to earth, here on space station, phase two get out to earth-moon orbit, we call it cislunar. then we get to martian orbit and then we're completely earth independent. you need all kinds of things, autonomous systems. it's humans and machines always working together. we have to land one of the big tall poles, that's what we call, entry- descent landing. you have a good little model here for me, he's kind of like a little lunar 3-d printed thing i love, that we're talking about.
we know how to do that for the curiosity rover. you know, one metric ton, maybe two; but it doesn't scale. we have to figure out how to land, again, our astronauts safely on mars. you're looking at twenty metric tons. that's what we're working on today. we're well on our way, so we're closer than humans have ever been, today, to sending people to mars. it's pretty revolutionary, i have a great job. i get to think about this every day. evan: there's actually one follow up question, is that there was an independent mission, i don't believe associated in any official capacity with nasa, is mars one. they want to send people to live on mars forever, to never come back. i recently heard an interview with the ceo of that organization, i think its a bit of a controversial organization, but he says that the biggest engineering impossibility, is to leave mars because of the rocket that would be needed. it's hard enough to do it under earth conditions.
dava newman: for ascent? evan: sure. what do you think of that mission? dava newman: they don't have the funding, they don't have the backing, they don't have the technical team assembled. the vision's great, let's get people excited, we want to take everyone with us, but we, nasa, and i think all world space agencies, will do round trips. we're going to send people, now we've got to get the [cadence 00:06:47]. let's send more people and have many round trip missions, that's what we're planning on. it's definitely a round trip. you want to go? i think you're going to want to come back and see your family. evan: i want to go, i want bring them with me. i see that facebook is blowing up. pete, what you got? pete: first off, do you believe that there is other life in the universe and what is nasa doing to contact it?
dava newman: that is a great question, is there life in the universe? that's the big enduring question. could there be habitable planets? we are looking for the evidence of past life. again, even in our solar system, earth, mars. both 4.5 billions years old, sister planets. that's why looking for life, i think would be past life, like fossilized past life, maybe microbial, it's so important. all of our exploring, searching for life, in reflection it tells us about earth. it tells us that's the important, enduring questions. i do truly believe we will be interplanetary. we'll have people on earth, we'll have people to mars. then we look way out when we talk about habitable planets. have you heard about these exoplanets? evan: sure 20 years. that wasn't a discipline, you couldn't study it 20 years ago. now we have thousands. we just let out a
big, i don't know if you saw it, press release just came out, categorizing 1,200 more. there's thousands of these exoplanets, we're looking for earth size exoplanets. there's a couple dozen that we call, are in the habitable zone, those look very interesting. they're very, very far away, so we're not getting to them any time soon, especially not with humans. again, what out sights are, humans to mars. there's ocean worlds out there, just phenomenal. we know that europa, moon of jupiter, has a huge ocean underneath all the ice. that's a great place to go in the solar system to look for life. evan: facebook, what else you got? pete: i've got a few people asking whether nasa's going to go back to the surface of the moon, and whether that figures into your future plans much.
dava newman: our nasa plans right now are journey to mars. mars is the horizon goal, again, as the three phases. we will give someone a ride, we'll be in lunar orbit. we're there testing out our technologies, investing, looking at the deep space environment. if someone else were saying, "here's our plan, we're real open about it. here's our plan. here's our journey to mars, here's all the elements that the us is leading, that nasa's leading." so if another space nation, or even private folks want to come up and say, "boom, we'll do the lunar lander." we'll say, "yeah, we're partnering." we're partnering with everyone, we're looking at this as global exploration. it's not one nation, it's not one agency. we're saying, "here's what nasa's going to lead." if someone else leads that lunar lander, i sure hope that there's a nasa astronaut on board. we'll get to earth-moon orbit, we don't want to stop. we're really focused on the horizon goal of mars.
evan: to talk about how we're going to get the steps to get there, one of the big things that i mentioned earlier was the private space industry. a lot of libertarians, you know who you are, would like to point to things like spacex, and say, "isn't it great that the private industry's taking over?" it is great, but what people don't seem to realize, or mention as often, is that spacex did it with decades of publicly funded research before that. i don't know if you want to get too political, but i'm just wondering if you have a general philosophy about what should be publicly funded, before it gets handed over to private industry. dava newman: we work together, and as you mentioned, a little bit of cooperation before is collaboration to us; public-private. we're funding spacex and boeing, and everyone. we're funding aerospace industry, that's what government should do. we're counting on their success. what's new is we're
looking at them for services, so nasa's not doing it all. right now, three companies, spacex, orbital atk, they're getting our cargo up to space station. we've given them those contracts, but we're buying those services, we're not buying their crafts. we're funding them now, and that's what we think absolutely what nasa should do, government should do. if they can commercialize low earth orbit, that's great, that's what we're hoping, we're planting the seeds. now sierra, in nevada, you've heard about that. they're going to be the third company in the second phase of space station to get us cargo, deliver our cargo. coming right behind that, in just over a year, then spacex and boeing are going to be delivering our astronauts to space station, so we're buying the services for cargo and crew. so we have cargo and crew, those services for the private sector. that's just a win-win. it's good for the government, it's good for the private companies. we're all in
this together and we want everyone to succeed. we're placing our bets, we want everyone to succeed. then nasa, we can get on with exploration. we love seeing all the private folks coming alive, and they might be in friendly cooperation with themselves. for us, from nasa and the private industry, it's all collaboration, we're working with all of them. evan: great. we mentioned a bit earlier, about some of the big missions that we coming up in the next few years. you mentioned on july 4th, there's going to be a big thing happening. the juno spacecraft is going to arrive into orbit around jupiter. we've been to jupiter before, but what are we hoping to learn and to see in this mission? dava newman: i'm really excited, actually its our biggest effort in citizen science. july 4th will be the [apagy 00:11:57], will be the closest orbit. we'll stay in orbit, as you mentioned, the incredible scientific
instruments on board. we're studying jupiter, but we're also going to say, "hey world, where do you want it, where should we point?" it's called juno-cam, we're sending back the first hd, the high-def images, will come back on july 4th. we're just going to open it up. as long as we're in orbit, we're going to say, "okay," to all the public, "where do you want it? help us explore." we really want to take people with us to jupiter, and i think that's the best way to do it. it's a huge experiment in citizen science, so you can tell us where you want to look on jupiter and help us with those imaging and we'll point the camera. that's juno, the countdown's begun. i can't wait for 4th of july; everyone's going to have a party for us for getting there! lots of fireworks going on. pete: we have a couple people that are curious about, what deep space travel is going to be like in terms of the actual technology behind it. people are saying, are there going to be wormholes, is there going to be speed
-of-light travel? what exactly do you think is going to be the reality? that's a little bit out there. the near-term space travel is, again, going on our space-lot system. that's what we are developing and designing, can get us to deep space. we'll be going to earth-moon orbit, deep space beyond that. lagrangian points are incredible places to go, both scientifically, and we have, i don't know if you know if you know, our discover mission, it's incredible. it's at l-1, lagrangian point one. that's a gravity neutral point between the sun and earth; half way between sun and earth, that's lagrangian point one. why is that so special? it's gravity neutral. that mission, i call it, is the solar system weather buoy. it's taking all the solar radiation and the sun's weather, if you will, radiation. it predictably tells us all that's moving towards earth. that's just an example of deep space, where we're going, realistically now. the question is a little bit more
star wars, or james webb space telescope, i want to mention. that's kind of related to the question there. it's doing everything; it's an infrared telescope. i got to see it. it's 18 mirrors, that we can tune. evan: fully funded now. there was some question of whether it was going to be. dava newman: it's on track. i've already seen it; it's built and designed. it's heading from out goddard space flight center to houston for thermal vacuum chamber testing. then it goes on to southern california, grumman, the main contractors, gets on a barge and heads down to french guiana. we're launching on an ariane 5 in 2018. evan: what will that be able to do? it's the successor to hubble telescope. what will that be able to see and tell us that hubble can't right now? dava newman: it's supposed to be, again, 26 years we've been investigating with hubble and it's
revolutionized all of space science. james webb is supposed to be 100x more powerful. dr. mather, our nobel laureate at nasa he told me, 100x more powerful. they are in different frequencies. james webb is infrared, hubble's optical. you put them together and it goes with the rest of the telescopes out there. it's really focused on the beginnings of the universe. it'll be looking at dark energy, dark matter, and really the beginning. it'll look even further back, if you will, in time. hubble is in low earth orbit, sometimes people don't know that. hubble's up there in low earth orbit peering out, but hubble now has shown us over 13 billion light years. amazing, it blows my mind. we get james webb up there and like i said, just can't even believe what 100x more powerful. again, it's really looking for the secrets, if you will, of the universe. dark energy, dark matter. it's powerful, it's a beautiful space craft, that's for sure. 2018, james webb launches.
evan: new horizons was at pluto and then it's gone further into the kuiper belt. is that how i pronounce that? dava newman: that's good, that's good. evan: does it have a destination in mind? dava newman: we're taking data as it goes through, since we've never been with a probe through this kuiper belt. evan: is it going to an object to visit? not to land, or anything, it's not a lander. it's just flying out in the trajectory, we know the orbit that it's going on, taking as much data as it can. it's getting close to the end of it's mission, since we went past pluto. the proposal's in for extended mission, that's what we do to missions, we'll see. it has to get peer reviewed, it has to get judged. those decisions will come in the fall, the extension of new horizons to keep it going as long as we can.
evan: i'm sure facebook is blowing up. pete, what you got? pete: someone's asking about what nasa's plans are to support the stem initiative in the school system here in the us. dava newman: thank you for asking the stem question, because that's one of my favorite things to talk about. i call it "steamed" very intentionally. the arts are always in for me. as an aerospace engineer, i'm the "e" part of that. really important. i'm talking to you about our journey to mars right? i need the story tellers, i need the artists. they are the visionaries. they bring humanity on our journey with us, they tell the stories. you can't do it without the story tellers. we need the scientists, the technologists, the engineers. the artists are important. mathematicians, all of my training is based on math and physics, if you want to become an engineer. we build and design and fly things, so i put a "d" on the end now, so i call it steamed, and guess
what? we have a great little model here. there is a 3-d maker generation out there, and i'm telling them, "you're in, you're my 'd'." the steamed generation, the point is to be inclusive. we need every little girl and boy out there, you're all in. nasa is here telling you, "we need you, we need your brain power, and so join us." every opportunity i get, i just love to go to schools and museums and look at that generation. they smile, they can see themselves, i call them the mars generation. what happens after millennials, right? it's my mars generation. to go back to some independent projects that not necessarily nasa related, there are two that i wanted to talk about. one is planetary resource, that's peter diamandis, the guy you've probably heard of before, he's done a lot of things. i interviewed him last year and this company wants to capture asteroids to mine them
because he wants to be the first trillionaire. that's one big project. the other one is a silicon valley-based project. breakthrough starshot, zuckerberg's involved. it was just announced last month, and they want to actually send a whole bunch of micro-satellites to alpha centauri. they said they're going to launch them in 20 years, then it'll take 20 years to get there, then another 4 or 5 years to get the images back. it's a long-term bet. is nasa working with either of those organizations, do you have any thoughts on them? dava newman: yeah, thank you. we've talk to them, again, i'm in charge of all the nasa partnerships, 700 of them, with 120 different nations. we're always talking to everyone. got to give a shout out to peter, we're dear friends, full disclosure. we were grad school buddies together [inaudible 00:18:59]. great visionary, looking at that. nasa, again, we're going to asteroids. september 4th, we're going to launch osiris-rex,
another one of our missions. o-rex, we call it, osiris-rex, is going to an asteroid, going to bring back a sample. what's so great about the private folks, when they commercialize these, we all have the same dreams , but they can commercialize it. the government agency doesn't commercialize it. they can make a business out of it and make money out of it, that's great. we just want everyone to succeed. that's a great dream. what can we do with going to the asteroids and maybe mining them? then, alpha centauri, that's really far out, that's great to just bending our brains. making us all think about how far can we really go and can we explore. that, as you mentioned, i'm not sure if i'll be alive to see that, but i love the vision. evan: definitely. facebook, what else you got? pete: for the first man-missions to mars, how long do you envision people actually staying on mars itself?
dava newman: thanks. the mission, as you know, is just over a three year mission. think about two years round trip, maybe six months out, depends on orbital mechanics. basically, two years round trip in going and coming back. then we hope, they'll be there five or six hundred days on the surface of mars. we have a couple different options, it all depends on the orbit. go for 30 days, that's a short stay. we're going to search for the evidence of life. we have a whole arsenal already on mars today. people need to remember we've been exploring mars for 50 years, maven is up there now, orbiting; breakthrough. the data from maven has told us how mars lost it's atmosphere. we have curiosity, mars science lab roaming around giving us data back every day, the topology, all these incredible things. when we get to mars with humans, we're planning for the 2030s. the first mission, probably about four people, over three years. that's five to six hundred days to live on the surface.
evan: do you think we'll ever step on a different planetary body, like an asteroid, or something other than the moon and mars, in the next 20-30 years? dava newman: i hope so. absolutely. evan: no concrete plans, though, on the not-so side for any those? dava newman: the question was, asked before, will there be people on the moon? for sure. i hope it's a nasa astronaut, again, we're not investing, right now, in the lander; can't do everything. we have to place our bets, but absolutely think humans will be back on the moon, exploring the moon. the moon is right in line. our journey to mars, it's, earth, low earth orbit space stations, moon and mars. that's all really part of the exploration vision that we have. imagine soon, in the next couple decades, people on the moon, people on mars, for sure we'll reach our goals. then it would be beyond that, again, probably first, with orbiters, landers
and people out in the distant future when we start going to ocean worlds and other places in the solar system. evan: great. i think we have time for one final facebook question. pete, what you got? pete: this one is asking what your thoughts are about the em drive, and what you think about its chances. evan: what is that, could you explain what it is first? dava newman: no, i don't know, what's the question? em drive? the electromagnetic warp drive? pete: yeah? evan: you stumped him accidentally. dava newman: yeah, it's science fiction, not science fact. i try to stick to science fact. evan: okay, that was all the time that we have. it's been great. facebook, if you like these interviews, we want to
bring more interesting people to talk to you. give us a like, give us a share, that's the best compliment we can get. we'll see you next time, thanks guys. dava newman: thanks everyone, pleasure.
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